Just watching the freed sailors pay public homage to a beaming Ahmadinejad. Hilarious.
This kind of publicity he could never have bought.
Reminds me of Uganda during the ’70s, when Idi Amin performed a similar ceremony with some Britons who had taken Ugandan citizenship. First they took the oath of loyalty, paying homage to a grinning Amin. Thereafter, the four Britons lifted him shoulder high, and against a backdrop of cheering supporters, bore him aloft like a victorious king.
Perhaps we should be grateful our sailors didn’t have to go that far.
April 4th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
Bel, you seen the Last King of Scotlnd?
I reccommend it.
April 4th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
I haven’t seen it, but I read the book. I spent many happy years in Uganda, so reading the book reminded me of so much.
Will watch the film though.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
We will see whether they return to Britain on Thursday. When Amireallymad made the announcement that he was releasing them, it was only around 7 pm in Iran. Why couldn’t they have flown straight out? Why keep them overnight if they were free to go? It’s not as though they had any packing to do. It’s not as though we couldn’t send an armed services helicopted to pick them up within two or three hours of their release and fly them to a safe country for the night.
I will believe this when I see it. My prediction, plans for the release will hit some fictional snag and there will be a “delay while we resolve this matter”. That will last all day Thursday. Friday’s prayer day, all day. Everything, including government offices, are closed all day.
I hope I’m wrong. I hope they are back on British soil and reunited with their families on Thursday.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Verity, I wondered the same thing as well. Even when I saw them partying in their new suits (by the way which mullah chose that ghastly frock for Faye?), anyway, when I saw them celebrating, I thought they had been delivered to the Embassy. I was surprised to learn that they were not, that they were still in captivity.
Until they are on a plane out of Iran, anything can happen.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
Uganda, the Afar triangle. yoseem to know East Africa well.
Seriously, how wide is your African experience?
I only ask because Africa is subject I think of great importance. So much so I’m thinking of accepting an invite to tour the continent.
Opinions in advance, Bel?
April 4th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
Yes, I know Africavery well. I travelled extensively in East and West Africa, plus a few trips to other parts of that continent. If you get an opportunity to go there, you must seize it. I learnt a lot.
April 4th, 2007 at 10:04 pm
Bel, I have a very bad feeling about this and not just the choice of that tragic dress.
A friend in Houston emailed me first thing this morning saying, in effect, “Congratulations!” and I emailed back saying ‘let’s see them walking off a plane or a helicopter onto British soil. Or at least onto the soil of a safe country’.
My heart will lift if I see them safely home tomorrow, but my instinct tells me they won’t be leaving Iran tomorrow.
Obviously Tony Blair couldn’t leave the negotiations up to the joke Foreign Secretary, but he was equally incompetent to handle them himself, being as deeply ignorant as he is.
I will not believe that our captured service personnel are free until I see them get off the plane. Blair may think he has “the word” of the Iranian president - as one head of government to another. Blair is too ignorant to understand that the ‘word’ of a muslim to an infidel means absolutely nothing. This is because the infidel is an apostate (all humans are born into islam, but some of us drifted away; ergo, those who drifted away are not human.)
Let us hope that we are wrong about this, Bel.
I am certain Tony Blair does not know this.
April 4th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
I saw the last King of Scotland and it is well acted committed but formless as a narrative and unsatisfying in the end . Goodness me Bel you have done a lot haven’t you. All I ever did was get a job.. wasn’t a lot of option really. Oh well Keep the aspidistra flying eh .
I tend to be rather suspicious of a great interest in Africa . One of the problems the Left have is the wholly irritating want of victims domestically . Going to the East End is laughable and although I saw a hilarious piece recently by an Islington Liberal who went to to live with people in( wait for it ) Rotheram, gasp ! How shocked he was that they read pornographic magazines…its in the New Statesman and the highest quality gibberish I have seen for a while . In general though you have to go on a victim Safari for the purposes of plumping up that dull and lifeless sense of sanctimony and that’s where Africa comes in.I think foreign affairs has a certain attraction to the Ronin Liberal in search of people to feel sorry for .Whereas in this country the results of his beliefs sit there accusing him of being a self serving fool Glasgow say , you can talk balls about the world all the day long with no obvious consequences As AID demonstrably does not work why do we bother with it ? Do you notice that the Guardian has far more foreign and less domestic News than the Telegraph. Not a coincidence
Would you admit Bel that “ Africa “ attracts an awful lot of ghastly display hand wringing form the likes of Bono( Onob) and Sting and not forgetting his Bobfulness of Geldoff.
I wonder what you learnt out there , was it by any chance something about the noble simplicity of the unspoilt tribe of somewhere or other and is that not a Western invention of Rousseau . I am finding it hard to imagine what there might be we can learn from the whole place but I `d be fascinated to find out . Perhaps a post on Africa at some point Bel
April 4th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
If there is an “unavoidable delay” tomorrow, it will be hung on the peg of visas, I’ll bet you. As they didn’t have any visas to be in Iran, that means they are there illegally, so how are they going to get stamped out of Iran? Oh dear! Thursday will be spent “trying to resolve this difficult question”. Friday is their “holy” day and all the government offices are closed.
My bet, the soonest our people will get out, after two additional days of mental torture for themselves and their families, will be Saturday.
If they are no longer in custody - having been “freed”, what stopped them leaving today? Surely, having been released, they were free agents?
OK, let’s say the Iranians didn’t want British military aircraft on their soil (yawn), then why not ask for the intercession of another Islamic country — the fine country of Jordan? (I always capitalise the words Muslim and Islamic when I refer to Jordan.) For sure King Abdullah would have dispatched a helicopter or a military plane for them. There were loads of solutions. Even the Saudis would have probably come through with a dedicated 747.
As I keep saying, I hope I am wrong, but I do not think this episode has played out yet.
April 4th, 2007 at 10:54 pm
hmmm a lot of interesting stuff here. First of all when I mentioned to my sometimes cynical but terribly politically astute 12 year-old that the sailors were free he arched an eyebrow and said “Well I guess they won’t be doing that again anytime soon…………”
To the comment as to why a helicopter could not have been sent to pick them up I would wonder why the helicopter present at the time could not stop them from being taken away in the first place………..
I do think it is correct that this might not be over just yet. But if it is we have not come out of this looking competent on any level.
As for the comments on Africa……hmmmm. I “accidentally” went to Africa for the first time three years ago and have been back three times. To dismiss Africa in the way that some have is doing it a great disservice (in my humble). There isn’t a person alive who would probably not benefit greatly from a view to the continent that many consider the birthplace of modern man. To view Africa as someplace that exists solely for the entertainment of the likes of Bono and Bob is to mankind a great disservice.
Morag climbs down off her soapbox and smiles at the assembly.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
I must admit that my first thought was, ”I wish they were out of Iran” but, on reflection, I believe there is no chance of their not being flown home tomorrow. Iran has got too many positives. They have taken on the West, appear not to have given away anything and, by releasing them, they appear (internally at least) to be magnanimous. Reports suggest that the more moderate elements within Iran have won the internal battle.
Not to release them now won’t show strength but will show a divided Iran. Such a public display of division would only encourage Western attempts (no doubt some covert) to widen the split. Therefore, there will be no public display of division and, so, there will be no hiccup in the transfer of the 15.
Obviously if I am wrong I’ll come back on tomorrow to grovel.
Also, despite not sharing your politics, I thought your dissection of Miliband’s “I Can” vision was excellent. Perhaps he should change his name to “David Milicant”.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
That is the what Africa is served up as here Morag so what is there to be learnt ..isn`t it a bit “swimming with Dolphins”?…….
I hope you are wrong as well Verity but sadly you are often right
April 4th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Morag writes about Africa: ” the continent that many consider the birthplace of modern man.” This is not correct. It has been defined not by “many”, who would have no basis for their “view”, but by anthropologists, as the place where mankind made our debut.
I don’t think this man (in any case, it’s a woman: Lucy) did the ironing or picked up the children from school, so not “modern man”. She appeared 4m to 2.7m years ago and at least stood upright on her feet, which is more than many “modern” women today can do outside the pub on a Saturday night.
Re your “sometimes cynical but terribly politically astute 12 year-old’s” remark when he arched an eyebrow and said “Well I guess they won’t be doing that again anytime soon…………” could you tell us who the “they” he was referring to was? The British armed services or the Iranian government?
What’s your “astute 12-year old’s” take on the Sunnis and the Shias, by the way?
April 4th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Thank you for your kind words, CalumCarr.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
Calum Carr - Then why weren’t they flown out today, as they were “freed” today. They had all day today to be flown out after all the waving at the cameras and bas couture. Yet they strangely remain in Iran? Why?
Callum says: “Not to release them now won’t show strength but will show a divided Iran.”
Not at all and I don’t even understand why you made that statement. It would show a frighteningly cohesive Iran.
Had they been free to go, they would have scarpered. The suggestion that they stayed one more day and are staying one more night in Iran of their own free will is bonkers.
April 5th, 2007 at 12:03 am
In some quarters the lowly populace are allowed to agree or disagree with thoughts put forth. Therefore many people agreeing with an anthropologist who has put forth an opinion means that many consider it to be so. If one person says something and 9 million agree - then many are in agreement. To say ‘many academics have decreed……….’ now that would have been incorrect. So knowing how things can be received - I did not do so.
While I do agree that there is an enormous problem with the many “modern” women who cannot stand erect outside a pub on a Saturday night, after doing a prizegiving at a school recently for Sciences and Mathematics and handing out over 100 prizes to its all-girl studentbody I would say at least some of them have been using their time erect effectively.
My son - whose political astuteness stems from a programme in his school that has the likes of Anne Widdecombe and Giscard d’Estaing speaking to them weekly at lunchtime - was referring to his take on the British armed services. I am not saying he was correct and as his best friend is an Iranian girl he might be slightly biased.
Sadly he was in bed early, the perils of revision - but I shall see if he has any thoughts on the Sunnis and the Shias in the morning and get back to you. These days he seems more focussed on how to get rid of Gordon Brown as he is a David Cameron fan (yes I know)…….actually maybe he isn’t as astute I think but I’m just a proud mummy.
April 5th, 2007 at 12:08 am
There is no doubt whatsoever that Africa is where ” mankind emerged from Verity .So what.Lucy I believe is a hominid specimen and not part of our ancestory at all , an off shoot of the bush at an earlier point.This is a factoid not a reason for quasi mystical veneration. Its the last place I would visit .
(BTW I was just listening to Mr. Dale on 18DS and this slipped out ” The only good thing about Kerron Cross is that he hates the Lib Dems almost as much as I do “. I wonder if the LIberal posters on his Blog are aware of this seething rancour.I was pleased.
)
April 5th, 2007 at 12:28 am
No idea who Kerron Cross is, Newmania.
(BTW, I thought Lucy - and obviously, her co-Lucies - were our ancestors. No? Personally, I would not be opposed to a Mongoloid ancestry, coming across the frozen wastes from the Middle Kingdom to Europe and probably, at that time, sledding across to Britain. I have actually noticed - and I am not kidding - that the Normans look a little bit like the Han, except around the eyes.)
April 5th, 2007 at 12:29 am
The long faces and the cheekbones.
April 5th, 2007 at 12:34 am
Verity: You can’t see where I am coming from. I don’t see where you’re coming from. We’ll see what plays out tomorrow.
As I said, if I’m wrong I’ll be on tomorrow to apologise and grovel. If I’m right… Well, I won’t need to gloat because you’ll know I was right.
April 5th, 2007 at 12:52 am
No,Calum. I went back to your post and still don’t see “where you’re coming from”.
Do you refer to this: “They have taken on the West, appear not to have given away anything and, by releasing them, they appear (internally at least) to be magnanimous. Reports suggest that the more moderate elements within Iran have won the internal battle.”
There is no “internal battle”. It has always been bullying and then a sudden surge of compassion.
You don’t seem to understand that Iran is an islamic republic. That’s the full package. Islam (capital because it is the beginning of the sentence) is islam. It is not malleable.
April 5th, 2007 at 1:05 am
I commend this excellent article. I am so glad I do not live in Britain.
April 5th, 2007 at 1:05 am
Ooops! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=446768&in_page_id=1772&in_author_id=244&in_check=N
April 5th, 2007 at 1:16 am
Normans were Vikings ( Norsemen). It is said that the distinctive high cheekbones and pallor of the Ruskie was a mix of Mongol and Viking ancestry. An interesting thng about the genetic inheritance of the English is that the majority of it comes from the peoples that preceded the Anglo Saxons.
I would appear that the other cultures were subsumed into the dominant Anglo Saxon and the people became cohered although they had different origins. What a good idea
mono-culturalism is .
April 5th, 2007 at 1:21 am
Verity: I have read and heard experts today and over the last week or so mention the “battle” between the hardliners - eg President Ahmadinejad - and the moderates/pragmatists - eg the spiritual leader Ayatollah Khameini: the hardliners apparently looking to extend and make more of the situation and the moderates looking to bring the situation to an end. Their(the experts’) conclusion is that, in this case, the moderates have won and hence the 15 are to be released.
“It (Iran as an islamic republic) is not malleable.” “Malleable” is an interesting choice suggesting “pressure from outside to change shape”!
Every organisation has different opinions and tensions which won’t always be on display to outsiders. On occasions the hardliners and moderates will agree an approach and at others they won’t. There is no reason to believe that Iran is any different.
I just hope that this is one occasion where the moderates have a different view which has prevailed. Time will tell!
Verity said: “You don’t seem to understand ….” Perhaps I don’t understand but, then again, my understanding may be better than you think.
April 5th, 2007 at 1:27 am
Verity, as it happens, I had just read the article, and I agree with him.
April 5th, 2007 at 1:47 am
Re Daily Mail article:
“We are no longer an imperial or even post-imperial people, and we may not be cut out for the role of world policeman that Tony Blair would like us to play. And a jolly good thing too, many will say.” Too bloody true!!
Verity / Bel: You both agree with the writer. What would you have done differently? What would you have had the 15 do differently?
April 5th, 2007 at 2:18 am
Bel - Yes. Me too. Awful to to be in at the Fin de Siecle,isn’t it? Three hundred and fifty years, and we are the ones who have to witness the unravelling.
Calum - What would I have had those 15 rather sloppy, yobby people do differently? Take their training in a different age, I think, because they projected weakness. The Iranians were clever - no one ever said the Iranians are stupid people - to seize it and exploit it. That’s the way of the world. They tweaked the British lion’s tail, probably for the last time it will be worth tweaking.
Frankly, Bel, she deserved that dress.
April 5th, 2007 at 6:54 am
Can`t say i have the slightest interest in being leonine myself .Why would I want to hand over my money so a political elite can posture on the aptly named world stage . Its got nothing to do with being imperial or not its a question of how much you want to spend on the army and what you get from it .I can see there might have been some old buffers yearning to have another go at Suez in the 1960s but it was silly even then , now ?Bizarre.
I would like our defence to be just that and no more. This would include supporting the US as a vital ally but not going off on Enid Blyton adventures for nebulous reasons to do with “Liberal Imperialism”
At one time this was the classic Conservative Foreign Policy …we all seem to be Liberals abroad nowadays …except me .
April 5th, 2007 at 8:55 am
Well they are released but I very much doubt we are in a position to make guesses about what supposed groups of hardliners or “Doves” had to do with it .
There were supposed be Muslim moderates here and government policy was framed on the assumption that they were the majority. The fact that this was a lie made little impact.That people like Verity have been loudly pointing at the absence of factual cloting has changed everything in the way we deal with the domestic threat. It has been taken out of the hands of the Foreign Office whose infulence ( says Martin Bright) was astonishing and given to Ruth Kelly…( who somewhat shamefully I rather like )
So if this is supposed to be a victory for mealy mouthed appeasement then I don`t see it . If we weren`t so hamstrung by having a country infested with traitors then the whole incident would have been a gnat to an elephant. As it is ,what are we doing ? Wringing our hands as usual ,” are we to blame” what could we have done.
I hope we do not get a new outbreak of “Realism” ie invertebrate cowering in dealing with the Horde without and whithin.
April 5th, 2007 at 10:16 am
CalumCarr, what would I have had the sailors do? First, I would have preferred not to see them hugging and punching each other in a jubilant manner like a local football team in the lower leagues that had just gained promotion. In fact, the only thing missing from that picture was a tawdry silver cup decked with ribbons. Where did they think they were, exactly? I can understand their shaking hands and thanking Ahmadinejad, but why not comport themselves with dignity as proud wearers of their uniform? Or does that not matter anymore?
I hope, on their return, we are not treated to the spectacle of them being paraded on the streets, in the style of victorious football teams.
Good to see them on their way back though.
April 5th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
a cynic might wonder how long the debriefing / deprogramming will be….
Hopefully people can focus on the lessons to be learned and not focus on the pas weeks embaressment and one upmanship
April 5th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
And good to see that britian is keeping up the top protection and security of these 15. If you doubt that , just watch the sky camera man who managed to evade that burly BA stewardess and film the 15 changing out of thier suits into nice clean uniforms.
April 5th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
If you doubt that , just watch the sky camera man who managed to evade that burly BA stewardess and film the 15 changing out of thier suits into nice clean uniforms.
Hilarious.
dolbyn, I think this episode has told us so much about our navy. I don’t hold with all this ‘don’t criticise the troops’ talk. If there is something glaringly wrong, we should point it out, or failing that, we will end up with Iran pointing it out for us. And you know they won’t do it in private. As has just happened. Britain has been exposed as not measuring up to its reputation.
Oh and the rumoured apology letter from the British government that Iran mentioned an hour ago? I am inclined to believe them, even after their recent manipulations of Faye Turney.
April 5th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Bel, masterly and I agree with every word you wrote above. The football analogy was a direct hit. I would also have preferred not to see them sitting around casually, smoking, and walking out, in their strange new suits (if that’s the best Iranian tailors can do, no wonder Ahmadinejad always looks as though he buys his clothes in charity shops), with their hands in their pockets.
Dolbyn says in that schoolma’armish, hectoring, New Labour tone that seems to have become the norm in Britain: ” Hopefully people can focus on the lessons to be learned and not focus on the pas weeks embaressment and one upmanship.” What lessons would those be,Dolbyn, that you have so acutely identified? And the past weeks’ embarrassment was all ours. The upmanship was all Iran’s.
Calum Carr - You refer to “hardliners and moderates”. This was a pantomime for Western TV. There was nothing to be hardline about as either they weren’t in Iranian waters or, if they were, they were on one of those constantly shifting silt banks about which no one could take any further offence than ordering them off.
This is a “revolutionary” government. There aren’t any moderates. There are pretend moderates to put up straw men for the “hardliners” to knock down. “Moderates” in islam are very thin on the ground because the entire “religion” is predicated on conquest and submission.
April 5th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
And yes, a letter of apology would be right up Tony Blair’s alley. Let us never forget how much he hates Britain.
April 5th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
PS- I see that Stephen Glover has also mentioned, referring to the behaviour of the hostages, a “sense of larkiness”.
This whole thing has been bizarre. It wouldn’t happen under a William Hague or David Davis watch, but things would have been no different under Dave.
April 5th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
On the news yesterday, there was much admiring talk about how the Iranians had bought suits for them, and I wanted to say: ‘you fools! Never mind about the suits, the central thing is that the Iranians have stripped them of their uniforms, and instead of hanging your head in shame, you are happy that they bought them suits.
Even if they were arrayed in purple linen, the point still stands. What is there to rejoice over when you have been captured, stripped of your uniform, and humiliated before the world.
April 5th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Agreed. How could anyone rejoice that British service personnel had been stripped of their uniforms? It is so bizarre. Can’t they see it’s the same reason they put the foul hijab on Turney’s head? To show total dominance. I am surprised - although, I suppose, not really, at how phlegmatically the English are taking this. (I haven’t read any of the Scottish papers, so I don’t know the Scots reaction yet.) But they really don’t seem to mind at all, and many of them were taking the side of Iran. Dhimmitude, thy name is middle England. The ignorance chills the blood.
April 5th, 2007 at 3:44 pm
verity
What lessons would those be,Dolbyn, that you have so acutely identified? And the past weeks’ embarrassment was all ours. The upmanship was all Iran’s.
well that would be the main lesson right there. Iran, Iraq and the middle east in general is often portrayes as little more than primatives with guns, and the great british nation as a great britania wearing maggie thatchers stern face. We have to sit up and realize that for many years - maybe as many as those since maggie was stabbed in the back roman style by her party - that for many years britian has been little more than a asbo teenager standing behind the loud pitbull that is america.
so the lesson - maye its a slap in the face, an intevention in out own self delusion - i believe britian has a unique role to play in the world , i believe that we are in a position where we can effect much change - but that first we have to reclaim th epride both at home and abroad that we have taken for granted so very very long.
And the last lesson - its all very well talking and blogging but its time this country did something more than that.
April 5th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
bel - i dont know what the 15 went through - its possible they were drugged or intimidated - personally i think it unlikeley - iran has shown it is anything but stupid - complex and intricate - but not stupid. My personal opinion is that the 15 actually believe they were in the wrong and believed that they had caused a diplomatic incident - as such i think they were genuinly releved and apologetic - it will be intersting to see what they say when the wordsl press get hold of them on monday.
First the iranians, then the british ‘debriefers’ and then finally the british press, one of the the most creul and manipulative force on the plannet. they may wish they stayed in iran, poor things.
April 5th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Dolbyn - I would be more interested in your political analyses if you could spell what I assume is your native tongue.
No one in their right mind would claim that he Iranians are stupid. They are highly intelligent and have always been acknowledge as such. The only clever thinking and the only art that ever came out of the ME was from the Iranians. They are advanced people. That is why this is more disturbing than it our people had been taken by, let’s say, Syrians. What’s more, they’re brave.
The Iranians were very clever. They were restrained. They did not overplay their hand. In the perceptions of the English public at large, they won on points.
April 5th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
verity - not a sun reader then.
April 5th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
as for my spelling - put it down to the product of goverments fiddling with the education system and general sloppyness on my behalf
April 5th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Dolby - You should be able to spell the name of your country.
A dire British education is not your fault, but if you read books, correct grammar and spelling will sink in even without any effort on the part of the reader.
On reflection, I think the Iranians have done us a favour by illustrating so graphically the weakness and ineptitude of Blair and his nest of communist cohorts. Thank God Margaret Beckett didn’t go cantering off to Iran - not that she would have dared - or Ahmadinejad would have been ordering “Couscous, baganoush and nuts for our prisoner-guests and a nice pared carrot for the British Foreign Secretary.”
April 5th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Verity, just heard an interesting story from my brother in America.
The news channels in Seattle, where he is, are full of criticism of the sailors. In fact, one Vietnam war vet who was held as a prisoner of war in those days told this story of his experience in Vietnam:
He (along with his fellow captives) had his uniform seized, as per usual. They were all tortured, starved, and isolated from each other.
When after about two years in captivity, the time came to free them, he refused to leave the cell unless and until they brought him his uniform. And so did his fellow captors. As far as they were concerned, they were captured as soldiers, and they would leave as soldiers. Eventually, the captors had to contact the American authorities (which whom they had negotiated the release) and new uniforms were sent, before the hostages agreed to leave the cell.
Values of a long-gone age.
April 5th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Changing tack a little and knowing this may be a live grenade…
I wonder how much the compliance of the 14 men had to do with a wish to protct the 1 woman. I cannot remember who the quote was attributed to but somebody said the problem with women in the armed forces was not that they were not up to the job, but rather that the men showing a degree of galentry were still treating women better and trying to protect them. I also wonder once their leave is over wether these 15 will have another tour of iraq. given the stress disorders allegedly growing among our serving men and women is there a point at which one says they have done enough - send somebody elses daughter.
April 5th, 2007 at 6:02 pm
(capitalization and full stops were never a strong point either)
April 5th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
Brave,brave men, Bel.
I agree, to some extent, with Dolbyn and that is another reason I don’t like seeing women on the battlefield. They’re not as strong men and it is the natural male instinct to protect women and children, who are weaker. And this distracts from the work at hand.
I don’t mind women being in dangerous situations - as in working behind the enemy lines as spies or decrypting messages, etc., but in situations where physical strength is paramount, men are going to want to slow down to help women and I don’t approve of putting them in this situation.
April 5th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
The above is not to suggest women are not as brave as men. But they are not physically as strong, and slowing down to help them can get a man’s head blown off.
April 5th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
This from Michelle Malkin. Very interesting.
April 5th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Verity:
You said (Message 45): “On reflection, I think the Iranians have done us a favour by illustrating so graphically the weakness and ineptitude of Blair and his nest of communist cohorts.”
And in Message 37: “This whole thing has been bizarre. It wouldn’t happen under a William Hague or David Davis watch, but things would have been no different under Dave.”
What would Hague and Davis have done differently?
I wonder about your view of the world when you describe the current right-wing government of Blair as “…Blair and his nest of communist cohorts”.
From your posts on this thread, you appear to see the world in a very “black or white” way which brooks no disagreement and has no place for subtlety or nuance.
This doesn’t allow any space for debate. That’s a pity. We can all learn from those who hold different views but only if we’re open.
April 6th, 2007 at 12:09 am
Calum as CS Lewis said “There are an infinite number of answers until you know which one is right and then there is only one”.
Generally a call for shades of grey is a hope to say white and do black.
April 6th, 2007 at 1:49 am
Newmania quoted CS Lewis: “There are an infinite number of answers until you know which one is right and then there is only one.” but an inability to accept that others have equally valid right answers has led to wars carried out in the name of religions.
Your 2nd point: “Generally a call for shades of grey is a hope to say white and do black.” sounds profound but has no substance.
April 6th, 2007 at 2:03 am
Calum Carr says to me: I wonder about your view of the world when you describe the current right-wing government of Blair as “…Blair and his nest of communist cohorts”
And what do you wonder, dear heart?
“From your posts on this thread, you appear to see the world in a very “black or white” way which brooks no disagreement and has no place for subtlety or nuance.”
This would be a correct reading of my position. We have been nuanced out of our glands by the UN, the EU, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Jacques Chirac, Mohammar Gdhaffi, Koffee Latte and his gangster sons, Robert Mugabe, that Chavez piece of shit, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Uncle Tom Cobley. Nuanced is so yesterday.
Why did you put ‘black and white’ in quotes, by the way? Scared?
“This doesn’t allow any space for debate. That’s a pity. We can all learn from those who hold different views but only if we’re open.”
Not me. I’m not interested in learning how to be degraded. I’m not open. Clang! The gate is shut.
Fact: There is no space for debate. We are in the endgame. I don’t care about people who “hold different views” because those people are wrong and history is right. Read Theodore Dalrymple. Many men in fluid relationships have “different views” about what constitutes child abuse.
I don’t believe in equivocation because I have a moral compass, as most human beings in all cultures do.
April 6th, 2007 at 2:06 am
Bel - Something wrong with your HTML because I opened and closed italics correctly throughout.
April 6th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Calum Carr: “but an inability to accept that others have equally valid right answers has led to wars carried out in the name of religions.”
I want to hear about all these wars “carried out in the name of religions”! Almost all wars throughout history have been carried out in the name of territory and/or hegemony. The wars in Greece and Rome were not carried out for the sake of dieties. Nor the wars involving China. (Some were in the name of drugs, which I suspect many would approve of.) The American War of Independence was just that. The American Civil War had nothing to do with religion at all. Napoleon? Religion? Wha’?
The vast wars prosecuted by the Conquistadores in the New World were about gold. Oh, and territory.
Hmmmm … religion’s looking pretty thin on the ground as a cause for war.
The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the Crusades, when Christians came to the rescue of Jerusalem and stopped the advance of islam into the civilised world.. Certainly the muslim conquest of Spain was about religion, though, and Christians did defend themselves against this aggression.
WWII was about territory.
It looks to me that the only times war was prosecuted in the name of religion involved islamic aggression against civilisation.
So, as far as I can see, off the top of my head, one aggressive religion has prosecuted war in the name of its rather demanding and unreasonable diety, and Western civilisation has defended itself and its values.
April 6th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Thanks for the Michelle Malkin link, Bel. Michelle always has something worthwhile and thought-worthy on her blog.
This latest aggression by Iran seems to come under the War of Bad Tailoring. I expect the British to send in re-inforcements from Hong Kong, who are the fastest and best measurers, cutters and sewing machine operators in the world. They will win, of course. But, although his side will lose, the upside for Ahmadinejad is, at least he’ll have a suit that fits and he won’t look so silly.
April 6th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
Verity, thanks for alerting me. I have reformatted the comments to render the italics as they should appear.
April 6th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Now that the 15 have been freed and interviewed we have been told the inhumanities and abuses those mean iranians did to our men and women.
They blind folded them and kept them seperate !!!!
Compare that to a british prison, over crowded cells, televisions and internet access, drugs and sexual abuse.
Compare that to Guantanamo Bay
April 6th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Exactly, dolbyn. In any case, they should be trained and prepared for hardship conditions, or is that no longer expected in these touchy-feely times?
April 6th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
I agree. Gitmo’s way too soft. I think we should put the Iranians in charge, and send over some Iranian tailors pronto to get these prisoners into sleazy, shiny, ill-fitting suits in styles that hark back to the 1960s!